Bob: The advantages of the older woman

Hi Kate –

I have two sons in their early teens.  They’re close in age and that provides challenges as well as many positive highlights, often simultaneously.  On the one hand, in a positive note, they have similar interests; on other hand, it sometimes means buying two of everything so they can enjoy the same toys and books without a fight over who gets what when.

 

If we’re out of town, it means we can take them to the tourist attractions and not worry which kid will be happy and which one won’t.  Dining is the same way.  We can go to a restaurant knowing they’ll each find something on the menu they’ll want to eat.

 

That doesn’t mean there aren’t the occasional disputes, which are often caused because they’re so close in age.  They want to get into each other’s personal space.  That said, we can play a video for them in the car during a long ride and, more often than not, they’ll both enjoy it.  

 

As for being dad, yes, I do enjoy it.  Truth be told, I love it.  It’s the most fulfilling part of my life.  I’m nurturing these two young boys to become the best adults they can be.  And that’s the way I’ve always viewed it.  I’m not raising children.  I’m bringing up future adults.  

 

I’m a stay-at-home dad.  My wife works full time in an office while I work part-time from the house.  It’s not the best situation but it allows one of us to get the kids to their doctor and dental appointments, take them to playdates and other activities, and, from time to time, be on hand to deal with contractors for various projects on the house.

 

As for love as you age, yes, I agree with you.  A lot of men my age – in their 50s – dismiss women their age for the hot 30-something.  It makes them feel young, I guess, virile, too, I suspect, especially when it comes to sexual matters.  

 

But, of course, it’s also demonstrates a shortcoming by men.  The relationship, the love, as they likely see it, is only as good as the coitus.  Frankly, what does that say to her?  He’s only with me as long as he can bang me?

 

I’m with you.  If you’re going to step out on your marriage, at our age, then there better be more to it than a transactional lay. There should be a profound emotional connection between two people before they become intimate. That probably puts me out of step with many of my male colleagues.

 

And let’s face it, the issues men face are similar to the ones women face, especially if we’re in our 50s.  She doesn’t lubricate like she did at 25.  He doesn’t become raging hard unless he’s helped along with “performance enhancing drugs,” to borrow a term from the MLB or NFL, like Viagra or Cialis.

 

Then there’s the issue of a connection beyond the fuck. Okay, so the 50-something guy bangs the 30-year-old. After the orgasm, what’s next? Sure there’s the occasional, rare woman that age who can hold her own in a conversation with a man 15- to 20- years her senior. But I suspect after the deed is done, there isn’t much to discuss or connect on.  

 

The advantage, as I see it, in having an affair with someone with whom you share the same age is that there are events you can discuss and cultural issues you can share.  From the Moon shot in the 1960s, for example, to where you were when President Reagan was shot, to music, television shows and movies, these things can help build a relationship.  And then, of course, there’s how you’re going to handle current challenges – ED, vaginal dryness, ageism, etc. – to how you’re going to manage future ones, among them retirement.

 

All of which is a roundabout way of saying talking is undervalued for too many men looking to notch a much younger woman. And it shouldn’t be. Because the best sex starts with a mental connection, which is why my fellow men would be better off seeking a woman their age.

 

I’ve been fortunate enough to have been to bed with married ladies my age and slightly older.  While I can’t compare it to having sex with a lady 15 or 20 years my junior – because I’ve never had that opportunity – they were very satisfying experiences.  A lot of it, I would say, had to do with our shared age or being in an age range that was close to each other.

 

I hope you’re having a great day.

 

Hugs, 

 

Bob 

Kate on Women's Fears

Hi Bob,

Hope all's well with you.

Your last note got me thinking about so many things.

Yes, men face many fears about sex as they age. But women face many fears, too.

Let's be blunt. I'm in my fifties, not my twenties. Things don't work the way they used to. Many women my age are menopausal, and that wreaks havoc on our bodies. Our sex drives are out of whack. Vaginal dryness is a very real issue. Our bodies don't look as great as they used to. A lot of men our age are interested in a thirty year-old, and they don't hesitate to let you know that. 

All of this combined can just leave a woman of a certain age feeling pretty unattractive and, well, unfuckable.

There is a positive side to sex at our age, too. I think it can be a more loving and joyful connection. We are generally more comfortable with our bodies and ourselves. Yes, our days of headboard banging sex are behind us, but it can be replaced with a genuine connection, especially in the confines of a committed, monogamous relationship. We don't have to worry about pregnancy, and we can focus more on our partners and ourselves. I think it's possible to have the most satisfying sex of our lives during these years.

Dan has decided he's not interested in taking ED drugs. He wants to try to deal with this naturally. 

I am relieved. I don't want to have sex with him. And I have a feeling he really doesn't want to have sex with me. How sad is that?

Tell me more about your kids. Do you like being a dad? 

Hugs,

Kate

Bob Replying to Kate on ED and Affairs

Hi Kate –

Men hold a lot of fear over sex, especially when their you-know-what hasn't been working properly.  Don't be fooled by the bravado.  Deep down inside every man is a scared little boy, even when they're in their 40s and 50s.  And this problem adds to their performance anxiety and the idea that every woman is looking for a 25-inch, hung-like-a-yak stud.

You can say all that you will that they shouldn't – that it's a medical thing that can be fixed – but the last thing any guy wants to do is see a doctor.  Especially for THAT!  

He'd rather die.

It took us two years to get pregnant.  Before putting my wife through any operations, I thought I better get myself checked out. Making the appointment was a bitch.  

"Why do you want to see the doctor?" the receptionist kept asking.  "I just want to have a private chat -- no more than 15 minutes.  Is that too difficult to arrange?"

I get into his examining room and I just blurted out the issue.  

"Well," the doctor said calmly, "we need to make sure you've got enough swimmers."  

Of course, that meant beating off in a cup.  Not at his office – Thank God! – but at another doctor's office that specialized in looking at that sort of thing.  The whole lead up to the event scared the bejesus out me.  Fortunately, it was a morning appointment, so I could get it over with. 

A hot Latina receptionist showed me the room where I was to, you know, and pointed out the cup for the you-know and the cupboard where it was to be placed.  After she left, I couldn't do a damn thing.  Plus the room was filled with lesbian porn, not exactly my interest.  In time, I did what needed to get done and left, more embarrassed than ever before.

Five days later, the doctor called, saying all was fine.  A month later, my wife was expecting.  So it all worked out.

So this is going to take a lot of love and understanding on your part.  I'm not suggesting it'll be easy.  I'm sure it will have its moments.  Just know your husband is holding a lot of demons about this.

As for affairs and FWB situations, I’m with you.  You can find something quick and transactional, and I’m sure there are a lot of men who are looking for that.  At least that’s what it seems.  But I’m with you.  I’m not interested in the affair because the affair all too often ends when the sex loses its spark.  

A relationship outside of the marriage, especially an intimate one, should be more than transactional.  At least that’s the way I see it.  I’m sure that puts me at odds with many who’ve had affairs or think they know what affairs are like.  But if I can’t have an emotional and mental connection with someone – that chemistry, if you will – I prefer to be alone.

I hope you’re having a great day.  As for me, lots of work -- professional and personal -- that needs to be completed.

I love our correspondence.

Hugs,

Bob 

Kate on ED and the Sexless Marriage

Hi Bob –

Hope you had a good weekend, and you got to do some fun things.

This morning, I’ve been thinking a lot about my sexless marriage and especially, my husband’s ED. (How's that for an opener? LOL.)

We haven’t had sex for about eight years. He’s diabetic, overweight, and doesn’t take very good care of himself. Other than an occasional hug and kiss, we share no intimacy. I haven’t truly resented it until recently. (Of course, that may be due to the fact that my lover is now gone, and I have no sexual outlet anymore. Who knows?)

I’ve tried to address this and get Dan to deal with it. His response? He’s given me “permission” to go outside our marriage to fulfill my needs. And, in an interesting twist, he’s going to the doctor this week to see what can be done, although he has refused in the past to try ED medication. (I think this is more to placate me and less about him truly being interested in having sex with me).

As you can imagine, my emotions are all over the place.

None of us gets married saying, “Gee, I can hardly wait for the day this turns platonic and we stop having sex!” Sex is part of the marriage compact, and it’s pretty selfish to ask your partner to live without it. I believe Dan genuinely loves and cares for me and wants me to be happy, and I think that’s why he’s given me the green light to go outside to meet my needs. I think he wants our marriage to continue, even if it means we live in an open situation, or a “don’t ask/don’t tell” scenario. (Yes, I have also told him he has my “permission” to go elsewhere, too).

But part of me also feels deeply hurt. It feels like he’s abdicating his spousal duties. I feel like I’m being outsourced. I’m wondering what’s wrong with me. I feel unattractive and unfuckable. I’m not even worth trying to fix this? Am I that disposable?

The sad part is, even if Dan fixed this, things are so far gone that I no longer find him attractive. I don’t think I could even perform. Honestly, I find the idea a bit repellent. And I don’t want him to just go through the motions or do something he truly doesn’t want to do.

I can only imagine how tough this must be for Dan and any man who goes through it. He must feel emasculated. He probably feels like something has been taken from him, and he feels the loss keenly.

My life would be much easier if I were someone who could be in a FWB situation, or just have sex without getting attached. But that’s not who I am. I need a mental and emotional connection with my partner. (Well, at the very least, a mental one. Have you ever heard the term sapiosexual? It’s being sexually attracted to someone by intelligence. That fits me to a T.) But I can’t do a FWB thing, and I’m not over my last lover yet. I really don’t want to have another affair, because it’s just way too painful. I’m not looking to end my marriage at this time, but I also don’t see the sexual situation changing with it. It occurs to me that I may very well be facing the rest of my life with no sex. That makes me incredibly sad. I could live with that if I were in my advanced years. I’m only in my early fifties, though, and hopefully have a lot of living left to do. And, frankly, masturbation just isn’t going to cut it for me.

Ugh.

Thanks for listening. I know I’ve heaped a lot on you. What’s on tap for today?

Hugs,

Kate

Bob on Marriage, Judgment and Affairs

Hi Kate --

It sounds like it's been a challenge with your husband, his ED issues, the late wife and his daughters, one of whom passed away.  Years ago, when I was involved with a lady about 10 years my senior, she told me you don't know love until you hold your own baby.  I think she was right.  Not that you can't love someone if you never have children; but the love a parent for a child is so very, very different.  

My kids have brought me to tears over their accomplishments and deep and profound worries when things aren't going well at school, which, fortunately, doesn't happen often.  

I can't imagine what it's like to lose a son or a daughter.  I don't think you ever really recover from it.  It stays with you forever, like a lingering cloud.

As for me, I met my wife in high school, nearly 40 years ago.  We were in the same crowd and didn't date until later.  It was a long-distance relationship for years.  To make a long story short, we moved to Indianapolis and stayed there, marrying and having children before coming to New England.

When I started posting on CL – because our intimate life was dead in the water – I was looking for a nice married lady for an FWB situation.  In time, I met a 40-something married nurse.  She was on her second marriage and had two adult daughters from her first.  We lasted about 18 months.  We went for walks or met for coffee and, from time to time, become intimate.  She was hardly anyone's idea of magazine cover but truly amazing on all things intimate.  I loved going down on her, and she introduced me to rimming.  So I rimmed her too.  She would moan and groan while I teased her clit with my fingers.

Then, one afternoon, she announced she was moving to Seattle and wanted me to go with her.  One of her daughters had a baby and the situation with the boy’s father was uncertain.  They weren't married and she was very worried about both her daughter and grandson.  But my kids were very young, 4 and 3, and I couldn't do it.  So we broke up.  As much as it hurt me, I understood her decision to move.  

The next lady was 10 years my senior and an empty nester with her husband.  She told stories about blowing him on a Friday night in the kitchen and not getting much of a response.  Of course, this was after the kids were out of the house.  We lasted about six months.   

I've dated a few married ladies, and the 70-year-old I mentioned earlier was a widow.  I liked her but she made it clear she was looking for something much more permanent.  So in spite of the fact that we had sex a few times – she always wanted me to find her 'g' spot, which I did – I couldn't really think of why we should go on.  It felt like I was a temporary solution.  That said, I appreciated her honesty.

I hear what you're saying about relationships.  They're so emotionally draining that when you break up, you often don't want to become involved with someone else.  If my wife and I ever divorce, I think I'll be more inclined to be "partners" with someone but not necessarily husband and wife.

I was recently dating a 60-year-old married lady.  I really liked her but we only made love once and shortly after our first time together, her husband died.  It was all very unexpected and she and her daughter sued the hospital for wrongful death.  She's got a lot on her plate and is very much mourning the loss of her husband even though when he was alive, there wasn't much of a relationship.  I suspect now she’s mourning the relationship they didn’t have.

But I understand.  And I told her so.  

The problem with the friend on the side is that they make demands.  And who can blame them?  That's what all relationships are about.  No one enters a relationship – marriage, FWB or other – with the idea their needs will go unsatisfied.  

As for the current situation with married couples, I suspect there are many unhappy ones.  The difference now, compared to 40 years ago, is the internet.  It's facilitated hookups and makes marriage that much more difficult to sustain.  It's way too easy to find someone.  If you attend enough kid events and listen closely to what wives and husbands say and don’t say to each other, you learn not everyone is happy being married.  

I had dinner with a high school buddy a few nights ago, which was great fun.  He went through a very rough divorce and has since remarried. 

Yesterday, I took our younger son out to play golf and attend to a few errands.  It was all fun.  We had some people over last night for dinner.

Thank you for your kind words.  You sound like someone who lives out loud.  That's great.  I love the way you express yourself.  I appreciate your honesty.  We live in tricky times.  

Hope you're well.

Hugs,

Bob 

Kate: On Marriage and Judgment

Hey Bob,

I'm not sure I'm an expert on marriage, but I sure as hell am an expert on poor judgment in relationships LOL!

I married my first husband when I was 23. We knew each other 4 months. I confused his controlling ways with love. He was screwing around the whole time, which included hitting on my friends. He was physically abusive at times, though it was never to the point of being injured. It lasted 4 years. 

When I was 29, I married a man I'd been friends with for a long time, a good man. We should have just stayed friends. The sex stopped almost immediately. (It wasn't great to begin with. He wouldn't go down on me, and, even stranger, didn't like blowjobs! I was always told I give fantastic head, so I don't think it was me. He just didn't like it). I think I married him because he felt safe, and I knew he'd never abuse me or control me. We did try a couple of therapy sessions, and he didn't think we had problems. I realized the sex thing wasn't going to change. 

I took the cowardly way out and started an affair with a man I'd already been with years before. (I left him years earlier because I knew he didn't want to leave his wife and kids, and I felt guilty). I wanted to leave my marriage, and he was the exit affair. I left. His wife found out, and I got a call at work that day saying he was at my place moving his stuff in! We didn't plan it that way. He was supposed to have his own place before we lived together. We went through his very nasty divorce together (she even named me as a co-respondent.)

He was a real prick at times. I left a couple times, messed around while I was gone, but always went back, because I genuinely loved him. After 4-1/2 years, I was beginning to think it wasn't going to work out. Then, out of nowhere, he proposed on Christmas Day, 2002. I DID NOT see it coming. I told him no. It was horrible, but I thought taking the ring without being sure would have been more awful. I gave it a few more months just to be sure, but I knew it wasn't going to work. We just were not compatible, and I think he may have been a bit of a narcissist, very controlling and sometimes mean.

I left in 2003 and moved in with one of my best friends and her husband. I dated a bit and met my husband in the summer of 2003. I moved into his place in 2004, and we got married in 2006. It's been tough with a couple of his daughters. Their mom died in 2002, and I'm sure it was very tough seeing their dad move on relatively quickly. We lost one of his daughters in 2005, and that's agony. I truly believe the worst things that can happen to a person is to lose a child. 

Still, we've had a pretty happy marriage. So why did I cheat this time? I don't really know. He's by far the best man I've ever known, he adores me, and he'd die for me in a heartbeat (and I for him.) Our sex life was always good until he lost his drive and got ED and diabetes.

My other man and I were friends for a few years before we fell in love. I genuinely love him. We never got to have much sex. (His wife found out a few years back, and she's like a warden with him. I'm amazed we've been able to carry on). I think I cheat because it's a shortcoming of mine and not necessarily a lack in my relationship. I think I crave love and approval, even though I have it. I've never felt like I could ever be assured enough of a man's love. My other man is retired and moved away, and we haven't seen each other for months. There's a genuine love between us. I don't have any desire to find another lover, and as I've already said, if my marriage ended, I'm done with relationships and sex. For me, that's radical, because I've always been the kind who likes/needs to have a man around.

You don't have to use the term Rubenesque with me, if you don't want to. I've been up and down the scale, and at this moment, I'm fat. To me, it's just an adjective, the same as "skinny".

Yes, I think we've all come across the person who's married to someone hot but either leaves or has an affair with someone who's not great looking but probably has a better personality. With Tiger Woods, though, I suspect there may be a bit of a sex addiction, which would put other things into play. Look at Prince Charles and Princess Diana. She was pretty good looking, but his head and heart weren't there. Camilla was the one who captivated him, and I don't consider her particularly attractive. 

I had a friend, now deceased, who wasn't anything special to look at. He was out of shape and an unkempt dresser who always looked like he just rolled out of bed. That dude got more ass than a toilet seat, though! He was the nicest, funniest guy. He truly loved and liked women, and his passion, humor, and enthusiasm got him far. I never partook of him, though I suspect he wanted to. He eventually married his longtime on and off partner. He got cancer, and died at 42, separated. I think about him every day. 

My husband is not the hottest looking man anymore, but women flirt with him and love him because he's great, and it shows! If he wanted to, he could get laid, no problem. I don't think he's cheated (I don't want to know if he did/does), and I commend the women who flirt with him for their good taste! It makes him feel good, and I'm not jealous, I'm glad. 

Your lady who was in her 70's sounds like she rocked! We live in a very ageist society, and God forbid anyone should have sexual desires after a "certain age." God forbid that an older woman can be sexy and show it and feel good about it. What's that saying-the brain is the biggest sexual organ? It's a cliché, but a true one. 

And wow to the lady who had never been eaten before. How gallant of you to offer to remedy that LMAO! It's not easy to find men who have the patience and skill. My husband is decent at it, but unfortunately gets cold sores around his mouth. I was advised that I could get herpes from him that way. I'm not willing to do that, so no more kissing the cat LOL! Thank God for wonderful sex toys, porn, and imagination. (Sorry if that was all TMI).

I know you aren't crazy. You are a passionate man with a good heart who is trying to make the best of shitty circumstances. I hope that somehow you will know that passion in your life again. I hope you will find someone to be in love with and grow old with, whether it's your wife or someone the universe sends you.  Unfortunately, there are WAY too many people, good people, who are in similar situations. I wonder if it's always been this way, or if it's just marriage in the last 50 or so years that has gotten this way?

Any good weekend plans? I'm going with my best friend of 40 years for a pedicure. It's her birthday soon, and it's a tradition to treat each other to birthday pedicures. Other than that, not much. I'm a bit of a homebody. Go do something nice for yourself, and have a good weekend!

Hugs,

Kate

Bob & Kate: The Beginnings of our Relationship

Bob and Kate:  Bob was very struck by the email Kate sent him.  So as the days and weeks passed, we exchanged information about our lives, where we lived and what each of us did for a living, along with our email addresses.  What surprised us about our email exchanges was how profound and revealing they were.  We didn’t shy away from our mistakes and experiences.   

Kate's Response to Bob's Post

This was my response to Bob’s post. I replied to the board, and not directly to Bob. Little did I know how much it would change my life.

“Very well put, and a gutsy post. I am a woman, over 50, in a long term marriage that is complicated and could be better. The state of my marriage is as much my fault as much as it is my husband’s. I have both cheated and been cheated upon in relationships. I am far from perfect. It is far too easy to be judgmental. Perhaps we all need to try harder.”

You can imagine my surprise when I received a note directly to my CL account.

“Hi,

I’m the author of the post. Thanks for your kind response. I appreciate it.

Best,

Bob”

I thought it was most gracious for him to respond. I also felt empathy and sympathy for his pain. I wrote back.

“Hi Bob,

Your post really touched me. It was beautifully written. You must be a professional writer. If you’ll pardon my saying so, your pain was evident. It took guts to post that, and I’m sure you took some flak for it. You said what many of us think, and what definitely needed to be said. Thank you.

All best,

Kate”

Who was this mysterious Bob who was in such pain? I didn’t think I’d ever hear from him again.

How We Met by Bob

I was a married man in my early fifties when early one morning I came across some misogynistic posts on Craigslist. I’m not one to take up people’s causes, but the insults toward women, whether married, single, or divorced, was beyond the pale.  A response was in order, and I wrote the following:

“I’ve met more than 10 married women on CL. I haven’t been to bed with all of them but anyone who judges people who are married and having intimate affairs outside of their marriage isn’t aware of all the nuances that keep a marriage strong and thriving.

"It’s easy to see marriage as an agreement between two people, sanctioned sometimes by a church and always by the state and local government, as something unbreakable. And probably it should be, especially when children arrive.

"But the great tragedy in marriage is that both sides, especially if it’s a long-term relationship, often take the other for granted. So that the time they used to spend working on the relationship — investing in it whether it was buying gifts, leaving love letters, going out to dinner or being intimate — disappears. And the partner who feels the loss the most sometimes becomes the one posting here or on another dating site.

"It’s easy to judge that person as ruining their marriage, breaking their vows, and living against God.

"But what about the other partner who isn’t investing in the relationship? What’s their level of responsibility?

"To me, neither side is guilt-free. Both partners own the relationship, and either it works or fails. Either both partners feel satisfied, loved, admired, respected, and longed-for, or they don’t. And if one of them doesn’t, they’re vulnerable to searching for someone else who will meet their emotional, mental, and physical needs.

"The married women I’ve met were all over 40 and in lengthy marriages. They came here as a last resort because their needs were unfulfilled.

"I’m not sure it’s possible to have an honest conversation about marriage. It’s too easy to be harsh and judgmental. Plus today’s technology makes it easy to mentally leave a spouse while still being married to them. Perhaps those of us who are married need to work it harder for the sake of society, especially the children.

"Just my two cents.”

A day or so after it went up, I received a number of responses, some of which were crude, understanding, and one which was quite empathetic. The response with the most empathy and sympathy sparked a relationship that continues today. Ours is a 21st-century love story.